Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.

The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.

If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.

This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.

Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?

Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.

I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.

You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…

You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…

Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…

If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…

No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”

If you don’t want someone to decide who you can connect with, you can spin your own instance. Otherwise every instance has admins that aren’t you

1. Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?

2. Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.

If you’re uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.

If Nazi content is something you don’t want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.

You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You’re not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.

Two things.

First, you can opt to follow that instance still, but I don’t know why you would want to hang out with a bunch of Nazis.

Second, I liken it to cutting out a cancerous growth. If you have an instance infested with Nazis and those Nazis are not being stopped due to a lack of admin and/or mods or worse actively being promoted by an admin then defederate them to keep the Nazis from spreading.

Look at the incel and redpill movements that happened on Reddit. Failure to act quick enough helped the movements grow. They were vitriolic to most people but most of them didn’t break any rules. They were destructive in nature and validated misogyny but Reddit didn’t act until it was a very vocal and well established community on its platform. Now, even after closing down their major subreddits, those users who weren’t the most extreme still actively espouse the values of those communities and have created new subreddits.

Or in this case Beehaw has some very progressive ideals, with rules that require a lot more active moderation, they can’t handle the influx of everyone jumping ship from Reddit. Instead of leaving the gate open for people who will ignore the rules it’s better to shut it and open a smaller “apply to join” door creating a protective barrier from individuals that may be Nazis.

In closing, I’ve both been a shitty redditor and seen shitty redditors and I appreciate that the fediverse has tools to decouple and recouple as needed. And again, if you like hanging out with Nazis that instance still exists and you can willingly hang out with Nazis.

I wrestle with this, I really do. Part of the way forward for me and part of the problem at the same time is finding consistency in the application of principles. I can acknowledge change over time in how I see this issue, but that change could be described as hypocrisy. I know when I first heard about and began to really get into Reddit, I was very much in the let the upvotes decide camp and felt it aligned with my generally liberal even leftist views. To begin to apply caveats to this idea should seem then to be a back step and admission that I don’t fully believe in democratic values or equal rights to beliefs and opinions.

But over time I’ve tried to reconcile this with certain emerging realities. Especially those brought about by the nature of the internet in particular. People will often bring up things like Nazis as their go-to example of why you should embrace moderation and intervention in open forums. It’s a pretty good example because they’re a fairly widely held archetype of an intolerable world view that almost everyone agrees they wouldn’t endorse, which is a useful extreme in any discussion on this topic even if a tired one. But one can always ask, “surely then, these Nazis would be a marginal and irrelevant influence? There’s no need to sacrifice the purity of our dedication to open discussion by intervening to banish such views on internet forums, the users and voting systems will do it, and if they don’t, then maybe it’s what ‘the people’ wanted after all?” Well sure, but this theoretical approach ignores realities such as the mechanisms that will be used to push this fringe and near universally reviled set of ideas to the mainstream fore. The machinery of the internet allows for malicious actors not to just put out their views on a virtual speaker’s corner, but infect and flood a forum and artificially distort it in to basically, a nazi forum. They’re not honest idealists trying to sell their relatively unpopular wares in the market of ideas, they’re walking around pushing everyone else’s stalls over or surreptitiously supplanting their own materials in to everyone else’s shop front. In a more literal sense they’ll use bots, they’ll use alts, they’ll brigade, they’ll insert Nazism in to every topic where it’s not relevant, they’ll organise together and purposefully distort voting for posts by automated means or just by a perverse dedication to poisoning the well by consistently voting on ideology rather than interest. They’ll use open hostility to make a place generally unpleasant enough to be around that there’s a disincentive for anyone except those whose only desire is to promote Nazism, to even bother contributing which will further reinforce the distorted influence of this small but dedicated group of bastards dilligently constructing an echo chamber for themselves and they’ll point to that echo chamber and their outsized influence in it and declare it the will of the people for the relative lack of a counter narrative. They’ll cry foul and rail against censorship when attempts are finally made to curtail them as they simultaneously smother anything like free speech themselves through their continuing degradation of it.

“But can’t we do that? What makes them special? If all it takes is dedication to an ideology shouldn’t we just fight with equal zeal?” maybe, but this takes us back to the purpose of the forum, and of the individual instances too. If, on each visit, your time is dedicated to trying to fight bad faith actors deliberately perverting the discourse from either an explicitly stated topic (for a specialised instance) or just general discussion, then you’re really not getting what you wanted or needed out of that place anymore.

The same applies to something less ideologically loaded but working in a similar fashion, ads, shitposting and astro turfing. Those are things you can be pretty sure you won’t miss and we’re all better off without, but similar to insidious fringe political groups, they will work against your idealistic principles to force themselves in to spaces you’d hoped to carve out apart from their malign influence. They’ll fight dirty and use your tolerant policies to help them proliferate. Unchecked, they completely overrun a comment section, they do it at scale, with automation and strategy and often with backing which gives them staying power and an asymmetric ability compared to administrators and general users alike but technically, they’re just sharing ideas, equally as valid as any other. They, like Nazis will also be probing the weaknesses of administrators, they’ll use techniques that render case by case examination of borderline unacceptable behaviour ineffective and impractical and thereby side step moderation that’s not empowered to deal with them at equal scale.

It is the sad nature of humanity and the internet that such things are predictable and inevitable. It means free speech is ironically something that has to be maintained through seemingly antithetical means, it’s part of why it even exists as a concept, otherwise surely all speech would just be free speech by default and there’d be no point giving it a name. It’s something that despite it’s name actually requires careful balancing to make sure it really is actually free for everyone and that that concept not being abused to effectively amplify the speech of small groups at the expense of everyone else. Knowing all this if you are hosting a discussion platform you have a dilemma, do you choose not to act, in order to preserve the sanctity and purity of your principles and commitment to providing a platform for open discussion; only to watch that platform transform from such in to its very antithesis, or do you actively take steps to make sure your speaker’s corner remains such both in theory and in practice.

Everyone missing the point because the example is “Nazis”. It doesn’t matter what it is, I don’t want someone else deciding what I can see. Unless it causes legal problems for the server, don’t censor me.

Individual servers isn’t the quick answer everyone seems to think it is.

Yeah, admins need the power to block communities for all users on their instance. You don’t want to have a list for new users of “communities you might want to block”. They should be blocked for you, and the list of blocks should be publicly available.

Can you elaborate more on this? Its a tangent, but one I’m out of the loop on.

Why DID beehaw split?

That’s the part that gets me. Like, I’m all for “it’s your server do what you want,” but I do judge you if your reason for defederating my server is something so stupid as “this other server says they’re bad, so I’ll trust that.”

You fools ain’t never had a friend spread a runor about another friend? Never watched a sitcom? People lie lol, if you’re going to make overarching decisions that affect your users too, you could maybe stand to do a modicum of your own research into it instead of just letting the one you “trust” bully you into compliance simply because this other masto instance doesn’t cater specifically to marxists, and “capitalists are nazis” so they must be banned or else they’ll speak!

My masto server is defederated for being anti trans, yet one of our organizations key members has been a trans woman since 1981 and she’s one of the most prolific posters on the server (and one of the best, I might add). We’re labeled “anti trans” simply because we didn’t defederate with a server that is actually anti trans when the “good guys” tried to bully my admin into it, but the admin respects us enough to allow us to make our own decisions regarding what we want to see or not see on our feed, so of course that suggests to these reactionaries that he wants to somehow exterminate the jewish people.

I’d be more open to it frankly if I wasn’t a direct example of how that system can be and is being abused to create echo chambers and bully those who don’t want to live in them. By all means, your server your right to do so, but my right to think you’re a bad person for it if it’s for silly unresearched reasons such as this. And you might say “they don’t have the time to investigate everything, so they just throw the book at it.” Well, they chose to become admins, they chose that job, maybe managing a public server just isn’t for them, I know I don’t have the time, that’s why I don’t do it.

Trivial probably wasn’t the best choice of word. I will say the effort was worth it

Sounds painful. Hopefully, you embraced the FOSS mindset and contributed the missing 10% to the docs.

How hard would you say it is for a non-programmer to set up their own instance?

I had much more luck running Caddy myself rather than their packaged reverse proxy.

What I actually DID say is that allowing mods admins to defederate entire communities is stupid. If you want to talk about THAT, fine.

I think you’re really misunderstanding a lot about the fediverse if you think everyone must federate with everyone. Choosing who you federate with is a fundamental part of the design. It means communities can choose their own ways to operate, and we don’t have to apply universal rules to everyone.

If a bunch of nazis want to run a server and post racist shit all day we can’t stop them. But we can (and should) defederate from them. They can have their own private island. If someone wants to run a “safe” server for (e.g) LGBTQI+ and defederate from some of the big instances, they should be able to do it.

If you want to be in a community that allows almost everything except racism, and other horrible shit, and federates with almost all servers then there are plenty of servers that support that. You are free to choose that. That freedom to choose is a massive feature (not flaw) of the fediverse.

You can argue it should be user-level, and again that’s something you can choose. But there will be servers almost everyone wants to defederate from, and don’t want to leave it up to user-level blocking because new users will see horrible shit as soon as they log on for the first time.

Admins* defederate instances*. Mods only have power inside their /c/ community.

I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.

Of course you did. You said that the defederating thing turns you off the concept of Lemmy, and you advocated for it to be not-a-feature.

You are advocating for centralised mega platforms owned by mega dictators.

The are two options. Centralisation, or decentralisation. That’s it. There is no magic alternative. This is the material reality that exists.

If it turns you off Lemmy, then what you are advocating for is centralisation. The literal polar opposite of what the entire fediverse aims to be and exists to solve. There is not an alternative and there will not be. You either get one owner of a super site or thousands of owners of minisites that federate in order to be emulate a supersite without the oversight. That’s it. There is no third-way.

we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de

Which also was my first home instance until I noticed that a comment chain I accidentaly started using another lemmy instance was not visible when looking at the thread though feddit. Not even my own comments made with an instance that wasn’t blocked. Turns out the user I answered to start that chain was a member of your instance and thus the comment and everything following it was not visible for feddit users.

Which is why I’m a full time lemm.ee user for now bc at the time it had 0 blocked instances and was blocked by 0 too^^

and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.

That’s the policy of lemm.ee too. It has 34 blocked instances right now but those are all suspicious ones that formed and got >30K users within a couple hours and no activity at all.

But ultimately, new users shouldn’t have to worry about such things, which is why I can’t see Lemmy growing as a whole with the tools available now.
Everywhere it says it’s not relevant where you sign up because you can see all the stuff from other instances anyway, but that’s simply not true, it DOES matter where you sign up and even after that you could be forced to change your instance when the defederation roulette starts spinning again.

and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.

no problem, the connection between instances are still kinda awkward anyways, I won’t be able to see whole thing. Thanks for the link, I’mma grab a popcorn real quick.

lol yeah there were a couple thank gods in this thread and i made sure to reply to both 🥰 it’s fun to be god

IMHO, the big problem is that defederating causes a bunch of problems when you’re cutting ties with an instance that is 99.9% good actors.

Sure, you cut out the trolls, but you also totally fuck up the user experience for the vast majority of well intentioned people.

Example, I’m on Lemmy.world, and my wife is on beehaw. We often both comment to a Lemmy.ml community, and neither of us can see each others comments even though Lemmy.ml is neutral ground.