• Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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    1 year ago

    LLMs are fundamentally different from human consciousness. It isn’t a problem of scale, but kind.

    They are like your phone’s autocomplete, but very very good. But there’s no level of “very good” for autocomplete that makes it a human, or will give it sentience, or allow it to understand the words it is suggesting. It simply returns the next most-likely word in a response.

    If we want computerized intelligence, LLMs are a dead end. They might be a good way for that intelligence to speak pretty sentences to us, but they will never be that themselves.

    • lloram239@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      LLMs are fundamentally different from human consciousness.

      They are also fundamentally different from a toaster. But that’s completely irrelevant. Consciousness is something you get when you put intelligent in an agent that has to move around in and interact with an environment. A chatbot has no use for that, it’s just there to mush through lots of data and produce some, it doesn’t have or should worry about its own existence.

      It simply returns the next most-likely word in a response.

      So does the all knowing oracle that predicts the lotto numbers from next week. It being autocomplete does not limit its power.

      LLMs are a dead end.

      There might be better or faster approaches, but it’s certainly not a dead end. It’s a building block. Add some long term memory, bigger prompts, bigger model, interaction with the Web, etc. and you can build a much more powerful bit of software than what we have today, without even any real breakthrough on the AI side. GPT as it is today is already “good enough” for a scary number of things that used to be exclusively done by humans.

      • Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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        1 year ago

        A chatbot has no use for that, it’s just there to mush through lots of data and produce some, it doesn’t have or should worry about its own existence.

        It literally can’t worry about its own existence; it can’t worry about anything because it has no thoughts or feelings. Adding computational power will not miraculously change that.

        Add some long term memory, bigger prompts, bigger model, interaction with the Web, etc. and you can build a much more powerful bit of software than what we have today, without even any real breakthrough on the AI side.

        I agree this would be a very useful chatbot. But it is still not a toaster. Nor would it be conscious.

        • Communist@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          It literally can’t worry about its own existence; it can’t worry about anything because it has no thoughts or feelings. Adding computational power will not miraculously change that.

          Who cares? This has no real world practical usecase. Its thoughts are what it says, it doesn’t have a hidden layer of thoughts, which is quite frankly a feature to me. Whether it’s conscious or not has nothing to do with its level of functionality.

        • emptiestplace@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          You seem unfamiliar with the concept of consciousness as an emergent property.

          What if we dramatically reduce the cost of training - what if we add realtime feedback mechanisms as part of a perpetual model refinement process?

          As far as I’m aware, we don’t know.

          How are you so confident that your feelings are not simply a consequence of complexity?

          • Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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            1 year ago

            Even if they are a result of complexity, that still doesn’t change the fact that LLMs will never be complex in that manner.

            Again, LLMs have no self-awareness. They are not designed to have self-awareness. They do not have feelings or emotions or thoughts; they cannot have those things because all they do is generate words in response to queries. Unless their design fundamentally changes, they are incompatible with consciousness. They are, as I’ve said before, complicated autosuggestion algorithms.

            Suggesting that throwing enough hardware at them will change their design is absurd. It’s like saying if you throw enough hardware at a calculator, it will develop sentience. But a calculator will not do that because all it’s programmed to do is add numbers together. There’s no hidden ability to think or feel lurking in its design. So too LLMs.

    • Communist@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      You’re guessing, you don’t actually know that for sure, it seems intuitively correct, but we simply do not know enough about cognition to make that assumption.

      Perhaps our ability to reason exclusively comes from our ability to predict, and by scaling up the ability to predict, we become more and more able to reason.

      These are guesses, all we have now are guesses, you can say “it doesn’t reason” and “it’s just autocorrect” all you want, but if that were the case why did scaling it up eventually enable it to perform basic math? Why did scaling it up improve its ability to problemsolve significantly (gpt3 vs gpt4), there’s so many unknowns in this field, to just say “nah, can’t be, it works differently from us” doesn’t mean it can’t do the same things as us given enough scale.

      • Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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        1 year ago

        I’m not guessing. When I say it’s a difference of kind, I really did mean that. There is no cognition here; and we know enough about cognition to say that LLMs are not performing anything like it.

        Believing LLMs will eventually perform cognition with enough hardware is like saying, “if we throw enough hardware at a calculator, it will eventually become alive.” Even if you throw all the hardware in the world at it, there is no emergent property of a calculator that would create sentience. So too LLMs, which really are just calculators that can speak English. But just like calculators they have no conception of what English is and they do not think in any way, and never will.

        • Communist@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          I’m not guessing. When I say it’s a difference of kind, I really did mean that. There is no cognition here; and we know enough about cognition to say that LLMs are not performing anything like it.

          We do not know that, I challenge you to find a source for that, in fact, i’ve seen sources showing the opposite, they seem to reason in tokens, for example, LLM’s perform significantly better at tasks when asked to give a step by step reasoned explanation, this indicates that they are doing a form of reasoning, and their reasoning is limited by what I have no better term for than laziness.

          https://blog.research.google/2022/05/language-models-perform-reasoning-via.html

          • Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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            1 year ago

            It is your responsibility to prove your assertion that if we just throw enough hardware at LLMs they will suddenly become alive in any recognizable sense, not mine to prove you wrong.

            You are anthropomorphizing LLMs. They do not reason and they are not lazy. The paper discusses a way to improve their predictive output, not a way to actually make them reason.

            But don’t take my word for it. Go talk to ChatGPT. Ask it anything like this:

            “If an LLM is provided enough processing power, would it eventually be conscious?”

            “Are LLM neural networks like a human brain?”

            “Do LLMs have thoughts?”

            “Are LLMs similar in any way to human consciousness?”

            Just always make sure to check the output of LLMs. Since they are complicated autosuggestion engines, they will sometimes confidently spout bullshit, so must be examined for correctness. (As my initial post discussed.)

            • Communist@beehaw.org
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              1 year ago

              You’re assuming i’m saying something that i’m not, and then arguing with that, instead of my actual claim.

              I’m saying we don’t know for sure what they will be able to do when they’re scaled up. That’s the end of my assertion. I don’t have to prove that they will suddenly come alive, i’m not claiming they will, i’m just claiming we don’t know what will happen when they’re scaled, and they seem to have emergent properties as they scale up. Nobody has devised a way of predicting what emergent properties happen when, nobody has made any progress whatsoever on knowing what scaling up accomplishes.

              Can they reason? Yes, but poorly right now, will that get better? Who knows.

              The end of my claim is that we don’t know what’ll happen when they scale up, and that you can’t just write it off like you are.

              If you want proof that they reason, see the research article I linked. If they can do that in their rudimentary form that we’ve created with very little time, we can’t write off the possibility that they will scale.

              Whether or not they reason LIKE HUMANS is irrelevant if they can do the job.

              And i’m not anthropomorphizing them without reason, there aren’t terms for this already, what would you call this behavior of answering questions significantly better when asked to fully explain reasoning? I would say it is taking the easiest option that still meets the qualifications of what it is requested to do, following the path of least resistance, I don’t have a better word for this than laziness.

              https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/science-technology/artificial-intelligence-gpt-4-shows-sparks-of-common-sense-human-like-reasoning-finds-microsoft-89429

              Furthermore predictive power is just another way of achieving reasoning, better predictive power IS better reasoning, because you can’t predict well without reasoning.

            • Slotos@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              It’s your job to prove your assertion that we know enough about cognition to make reasonable comparisons.

              • Veraticus@lib.lgbtOP
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                1 year ago

                May as well ask me to prove that we know enough about calculators to say they won’t develop sentience while I’m at it.