You’ve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person you’re responding to means isn’t scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people I’ve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
That’s a currently “unallowed to challenge” topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but here’s the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
There’s no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. It’s not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me it’s an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
The current gender/trans ideology isn’t just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about “gender/trans ideology.”
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond “well what about Black people in sports? What about white athletes’ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?” The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. What’s so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. It’s a league that’s sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like I’m bashing women’s sports, but I’m not. I’m glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldn’t be opening that up to those who don’t have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just don’t think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? I’m not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, that’s never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible,
I agree, but I think sports falls under “not possible” because they don’t meet the requirements for the women’s league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I don’t think they should be competing in women’s sports, it’s unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, let’s just get rid of women’s sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women aren’t equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Let’s just get rid of all women’s sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
I’m fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasn’t been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just don’t think sports matters more than peoples’ rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, I’m fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasn’t been for years.
So you are for getting rid of women’s sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
But ultimately I just don’t think sports matters more than peoples’ rights.
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, I’m fine with that.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think it’s great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldn’t really be women in sports.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, that’s legal in an open to everyone category. Women’s sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who don’t take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, that’s your grave to dig.
Race isn’t the same as gender, I’m hoping you realize that. In today’s world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I can’t choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, don’t try to compete in leagues you don’t qualify for. Women’s sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
So you are for getting rid of women’s sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so they’ve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
even if some races had an advantage, that’s legal in an open to everyone category
The point is it didn’t used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had “higher muscle density” and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the “open to everyone categories.” Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didn’t matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyone’s decided that’s okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
In today’s world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I can’t choose to be black as a white person.
Gender is not “more a state of mind than anything else,” any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they aren’t pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldn’t hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine “but what about fairness in sports?”
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the “problem” itself.
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so they’ve already solved this problem.
Why should we have separate categories at the ultra professional level only? It wasn’t until pretty recently that trans women trying to compete in women’s sports was even a thing, and I believe they do have some tests in certain competitions that would not allow trans women to compete.
The point is it didn’t used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had “higher muscle density” and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the “open to everyone categories.”
That was also during a time where they were segregated from everything, right? Also, while that reasoning might have been BS, the reasoning for not allowing trans women in women’s sports isn’t. Biology isn’t BS, it’s science. Trans women have a biological and scientifically proven physical advantage over women from birth.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing.
The reason behind the argument matters a lot. You are comparing racism backed arguments with scientifically backed ones. They aren’t the same argument, they are based on very different reasons.
Gender is not “more a state of mind than anything else,” any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they aren’t pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
What I meant is that gender is all in your head, sex and race are not. We should not define sports by what you say you are in your own head. When it comes to bathroom use, sure, base it on gender, aka what is in your head. When it comes to sports, we should use sex, not gender. I’m not trying to bash trans people here, I think they should be treated as the gender they identify with, and that is what I mean by gender being a state of mind, whereas sex is a biological state.
Unlike gender though, where at some point after birth you can change it, you can’t change your race. One of these is physical, the other is mental.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldn’t hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine “but what about fairness in sports?”
Right now everyone has the same rights, so you don’t lose it gain rights by switching genders. There is no right to compete in sports, so no right is lost by banning trans from women’s sports. Maybe you have a different definition of “rights” than the actual definition?
Maybe trans liberation shouldn’t be fighting for stuff like inclusion in sports? There is such a thing as taking a movement too far. I’m all for fair treatment, access to healthcare, inclusion in society, etc. But when it comes to thinking trans women are exactly the same in every way to a biological woman, that’s just taking it too far and blatantly ignoring science. There are going to be times when we need to separate trans and biological women, and for the sake of fairness and the whole reason women sports what in the first place, trans women shouldn’t play in women’s sports.
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the “problem” itself.
Maybe trans people should find other stuff to care about besides inclusion in sports they aren’t eligible for. I also don’t see anything wrong with stopping a problem now before it becomes a bigger problem. Just look at climate change, how much better would it have been if instead of “it’s not an issue yet, no need to care about it” we actually did care about it many years ago? Personally I don’t like waiting for problems to become big problems before doing something.
The NFL isn’t a male league for example - it’s an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didn’t come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best women’s soccer player on earth, wouldn’t even get close to making a men’s pro team. The world beating women’s USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
The issue isn’t just that they might win, it’s that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you don’t see how that’s not fair I don’t know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that don’t mesh with gender identity politics, and there’s no way around that.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women can’t naturally get?
You’re right, it’s not vague at all - it’s not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isn’t an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. You’re jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you don’t agree with, and currently the “that’s transphobic!” line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you don’t have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of “what’s so wrong with trans women winning women’s sporting events” says it all. “Who cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.”
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked man……instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the women’s records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the men’s division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the “progressives” that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
You’ve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person you’re responding to means isn’t scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people I’ve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
That’s a currently “unallowed to challenge” topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but here’s the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
There’s no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. It’s not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me it’s an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
I don’t think this is vague in the slightest:
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about “gender/trans ideology.”
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond “well what about Black people in sports? What about white athletes’ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?” The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. What’s so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. It’s a league that’s sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like I’m bashing women’s sports, but I’m not. I’m glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldn’t be opening that up to those who don’t have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just don’t think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? I’m not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, that’s never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
I agree, but I think sports falls under “not possible” because they don’t meet the requirements for the women’s league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I don’t think they should be competing in women’s sports, it’s unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, let’s just get rid of women’s sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women aren’t equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Let’s just get rid of all women’s sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
I’m fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasn’t been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just don’t think sports matters more than peoples’ rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, I’m fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
So you are for getting rid of women’s sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think it’s great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldn’t really be women in sports.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, that’s legal in an open to everyone category. Women’s sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who don’t take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, that’s your grave to dig.
Race isn’t the same as gender, I’m hoping you realize that. In today’s world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I can’t choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, don’t try to compete in leagues you don’t qualify for. Women’s sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so they’ve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
The point is it didn’t used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had “higher muscle density” and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the “open to everyone categories.” Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didn’t matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyone’s decided that’s okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
Gender is not “more a state of mind than anything else,” any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they aren’t pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldn’t hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine “but what about fairness in sports?”
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the “problem” itself.
Why should we have separate categories at the ultra professional level only? It wasn’t until pretty recently that trans women trying to compete in women’s sports was even a thing, and I believe they do have some tests in certain competitions that would not allow trans women to compete.
That was also during a time where they were segregated from everything, right? Also, while that reasoning might have been BS, the reasoning for not allowing trans women in women’s sports isn’t. Biology isn’t BS, it’s science. Trans women have a biological and scientifically proven physical advantage over women from birth.
The reason behind the argument matters a lot. You are comparing racism backed arguments with scientifically backed ones. They aren’t the same argument, they are based on very different reasons.
What I meant is that gender is all in your head, sex and race are not. We should not define sports by what you say you are in your own head. When it comes to bathroom use, sure, base it on gender, aka what is in your head. When it comes to sports, we should use sex, not gender. I’m not trying to bash trans people here, I think they should be treated as the gender they identify with, and that is what I mean by gender being a state of mind, whereas sex is a biological state.
Unlike gender though, where at some point after birth you can change it, you can’t change your race. One of these is physical, the other is mental.
Right now everyone has the same rights, so you don’t lose it gain rights by switching genders. There is no right to compete in sports, so no right is lost by banning trans from women’s sports. Maybe you have a different definition of “rights” than the actual definition?
Maybe trans liberation shouldn’t be fighting for stuff like inclusion in sports? There is such a thing as taking a movement too far. I’m all for fair treatment, access to healthcare, inclusion in society, etc. But when it comes to thinking trans women are exactly the same in every way to a biological woman, that’s just taking it too far and blatantly ignoring science. There are going to be times when we need to separate trans and biological women, and for the sake of fairness and the whole reason women sports what in the first place, trans women shouldn’t play in women’s sports.
Maybe trans people should find other stuff to care about besides inclusion in sports they aren’t eligible for. I also don’t see anything wrong with stopping a problem now before it becomes a bigger problem. Just look at climate change, how much better would it have been if instead of “it’s not an issue yet, no need to care about it” we actually did care about it many years ago? Personally I don’t like waiting for problems to become big problems before doing something.
Exactly.
The NFL isn’t a male league for example - it’s an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didn’t come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best women’s soccer player on earth, wouldn’t even get close to making a men’s pro team. The world beating women’s USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
Sex matters in sport, not gender.
The issue isn’t just that they might win, it’s that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you don’t see how that’s not fair I don’t know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that don’t mesh with gender identity politics, and there’s no way around that.
Fair to whom?
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
So too here.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women can’t naturally get?
You’re right, it’s not vague at all - it’s not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isn’t an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. You’re jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you don’t agree with, and currently the “that’s transphobic!” line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you don’t have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of “what’s so wrong with trans women winning women’s sporting events” says it all. “Who cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.”
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked man……instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the women’s records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the men’s division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
Bingo.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the “progressives” that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.