Lately we have been dealing with a few abusive members from Feddit.nl and we were unable to get in touch with the instance administrator.
Part of the problem is the instance’s open registrations which do not require you to enter an e-mail address during signup. This in combination with an inactive admin is a recipe for abuse.
We hope this is only temporary but we have to do this to protect our users.
Edit: we use fediseer, have a look https://gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.world
Edit 2: We got in touch with the Feddit.nl admin. Email requirements were added to the sign-up process and we’re setting up a communication channel. So that means we are federating with Feddit.nl again!
Stuff like this is going to kill the momentum of the fediverse. I’m a reddit refugee, my main account started on vlemmy.net (because it had a policy to not defederate from anything), and when that went poof, I moved to feddit.nl (because it has a policy to not defederate from anything). I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else’s, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don’t or do want to see, respectively.
Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control. Since hosting my own instance is out of the question for me, my options are: find a third instance with a no-defederation policy that hasn’t been defederated itself from major instances, have multiple accounts and browse each instance individually, stop browsing altogether, or go back to reddit. As distasteful as the last option is, it’s tempting. I know the impulse will be to tell me “good riddance”, but I am posting this because I know there are others like me that are tired of instance hopping and trying to find somewhere that doesn’t try to police our browsing and also isn’t defederated from major instances.
For the record, I don’t want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.
I actually prefer that instances can do this, the whole point is to find one you more closely align with like old school forums. The ones they’ve done this to are either mass brigading, full of Nazis or sharing CSAM. They have every right to protect their users from that kind of stuff or make those decisions when they’re individuals paying to run an instance.
Until there’s a tool I can use to fully block instances myself (which I don’t see available) this is the way it’s run. Maybe the fediverse just isn’t for you? As someone who grew up using old school forums this is completely fine and expected. If I am running a website (or store) I have every right to manage it the way I see fit.
If defederation worked more like a shadowban, I would agree with you. .world defederating with feddit.nl could result in no one from .world seeing any content posted by anyone from .nl, but .nl can still see the content from .world. It’s unfortunate that .nl couldn’t participate anymore, but it’s better than that community ceasing to exist.
Defederations as they exist now are like being in a restaurant. There are two employees, one makes the food, the other makes the drinks. It starts out with being able to order either, or both, right from the comfort of your table. However, the owner of the restaurant decides that he just doesn’t care much for drinks, and kicks out the drink-maker. The drink-maker opens a new store across the street, but he does not serve food, only drinks, and the restaurant you started at doesn’t serve drinks, only food. Yes, technically, you are still free to go across the street to get some drinks, or stay here for some food, but boy, wouldn’t it be nicer if that owner never decided he didn’t like drinks? Sure, not EVERYONE in the restaurant cares, but a pretty significant amount of them probably would. They might just go down the street to McReddits. Sure, the food there is pretty bad, but at least they can get both food and drinks without having to go across the street.
A user on there posted CSAM. Given that images federate too and that moderation over there seems to be lacking, do you not think it’s unrealistic not to expect defederation?
I never said I didn’t understand. I’m pointing out a problem that can, and I believe, will, lead to issues with user retention. If one is punished for the bad actions of someone on their instance that they have no control over, it will lead to frustration. I know this because it has happened to me twice now- once with vlemmy disappearing due to someone posting something bad that spooked the admin, and now feddit.nl because someone posted something bad that spooked these admins. I’m not saying it’s not understandable, I’m merely saying that a problem exists.
I expect the Admin’s priority was to worry about potentially inadvertently hosting CSAM rather than user retention.
Two problems can exist simultaneously. I’m suggesting that something should be done about defederation, and the things that lead to it (like automatic image proliferation), because if defederation continues as it is, it will hurt user retention.
What about abusive users that post in communities outside of their home instance? I think that’s what we’re talking about here. I can block instances, but there are communities in Lemmy.world that I enjoy and I appreciate the admins effort to keep abusive users out.
Each user can block other users. Moderators can block users. It can be handled the same way that other sites (yes, like reddit) do it. I’m also not opposed to defederation when it is essentially a single-user ban- for example, if there is an instance with no communities, no signup requirement, and has nothing but malicious bots- that’s banning a bot farm, not “defederation” as it’s commonly understood. But with something like this- where feddit.nl is actually a rather large instance- so many people are essentially being punished for absolutely no fault of their own.
Do you understand that when CSAM images are uploaded to an instance, they are federated to other instances as well?
Even if users have the option to block whole instances themselves, there are STILL going to be instances Lemmy World will not be federating with because we don’t want to risk having any of that on our server.
And feddit.nl had a user that posted csam on our instance, which then federates to other instances. So basically everyone gets a copy.
I do understand. I’m expressing a worry that things like this will lead to trouble for the fediverse’s user retention. Nowhere did I say that I didn’t understand the reasoning. It’s not a requirement to have a solution at hand when pointing out a problem. An instance as large as lemmy.world defederating from an instance as large as feddit.nl is a problem. Is the solution giving moderators better tools? Stopping the automatic proliferation of images? Removing the image hosting entirely to rely on external hosts? Or is this an insurmountable problem with no solution? The specific answer, or even existence of an answer, does not determine whether the problem itself exists.
@PrinceHabib72 @antik are you concern trolling? Because this sounds like concern trolling. You know what they say, you let one Nazi in your bar, soon enough you’ll own the Nazi bar.
I’m legitimately unfamiliar with the term. I’m being very genuine. I’m not sure what you mean about the Nazi bar, either. I’m encouraging users to curate their own experiences. Any time they see a Nazi, they can figuratively erase that Nazi from their personal existence. If they see a Nazi bar, they can erase that too. I object to being TOLD, rather than deciding for myself, what bars are Nazi bars.
There would not be a problem if the instance was managed. Everyone can start an instance but it takes a lot more to keep it running and moderated. Check the problems beehaw.org are currently going through.
And as you point out, feddit.nl is quite a bit instance but it only has ONE admin. That is a problem. And that is also something to remember when you decide on which instance you want to host your community.
There is a common thread in your complaints. This isn’t a problem that’s going to kill the fediverse it’s a problem with instances without moderation. Turns out shitty instances that don’t care about moderation are the same ones that “have a policy to not defederate from anything”. Stop joining shitty instances that allow literally illegal content and you won’t have that problem.
having a ‘principled objection’ to others telling you that you can’t see child sexual abuse tapes is very admirable and sounds much better
i doubt its going to change anything though, since ‘principled objection’ to laws doesnt actually stop said laws from applying to you, or the site youre using
Ah yes, the two things- acceptable things and CASM. EVERYTHING IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS.
I feel like the fact that you still consider Reddit an option invalidates your entire point.