- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
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There was already a case with this same fingerprint outcome a few years ago. Biometrics are not protected from seizure.
However, passcodes still are. Last time I checked you cannot be compelled to surrender your passcode locking your phone.
Which is also why both iPhone and Android have panic/lockdown modes.
For my android, if I rapidly tap the fingerprint reader or the power key five times in a row, it locks down and will only be unlocked with a password. I understand iPhones have this same activation method too. Different Android models might have different activations, so you’d have to check the settings.
You can also just hold the power key and shut the phone down, because it’s pretty standard now that upon a reboot you have to put in the pin first before you can use fingerprint.
Which is also why both iPhone and Android have panic modes.
When you are encountering police that would be seizing your phone in the near future, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND AGAINST quickly shoving your hand in your pocket to try to lock your phone.
They may take our lives, but they’ll never take our phones!
Whoops. Apparently my android version has 5x power button pressed call 911.
It does require a pass code on hard power cycle though, which is what I use when going through security (when I remember)
Edit - holding power and volume down shuts the phone down
Hah. Did the same thing. Hit cancel right away. I’m sure there’s a setting to change that.
Also, you can add a “Lockdown mode” button in the power menu where there are Power off and Restart buttons. No need to power off that way.
You can also just hold the power key and shut the phone down
Not on Android 14 at least, if not 13. They moved it to your slide-down menu, hold power is the assistant these days.
You might be able to change it in settings, but that’s the default.
On OneUi holding the power button still brings me to the restart, power 9ff, emergency, medical info menu.
Edit to add: Android 14, OneUi 6.1
Out-of-the-box it’s set to Wake Bixby, but it can be changed to Power off menu. One of the first things I changed when I got my phone.
Just made me almost call 911 trying it, gave me a real spook. At least I know how to quickly call 911 now
Edit: in LineageOS 21, this is configurable under Settings > Safety & emergency > Emergency SOS
Same happened here. Didn’t even know the emergency SOS mode was a thing.
Well I just found out my phone does this but it’s half fucking baked
It’s one of those foldable (clamshells) and this works while the phone is open, but even if biometrics is disabled and it asks for a password, biometrics still works to unlock the phone while folded, and then stays unlocked after opening…
So the only safe way is to shut it off completely so the storage isn’t decrypted yet
I just tried this on my iPhone and it worked like a charm.
For my iphone at least, to shut off the power you have to tap volume up, volume down & hold the power button to show the poweroff option. I think cause you can map multiple clicks to actions.
Where do you get that? I can’t seem to find it.
For my android, if I rapidly tap the fingerprint reader or the power key five times in a row, it locks down and will only be unlocked with a password.
Mine just starts the camera app 😂
I probably changed the setting and forgot 😅
This is becoming a grey area.
In several states, especially where CBP is involved, there are legitimate challenges to this protetion.
Even so, biometrics SHOULD be protected under 5th amendment. The fact that it isnt seems very anti-freedom.
give us your password
“I cannot recall”
Or are we not rich enough for that line?
Keep giving them possible passwords since you don’t remember exactly what you changed it too and don’t perform well under pressure.
Since when have the courts ever cared about the constitution? Other than the 2nd amendment
Like, all the time? What are you even talking about? The 5th amendment is an extremely powerful legal protection. It’s been violated before, but in the vast, vast majority of cases, it’s rock solid.
I’m glad my passcode is 1 2 3 4 5!
They will never get that out of me!
Stay out of my luggage!
And my air shield!
Make your password “I’ll never tell” so when they ask for it, you can give it to them without lying but they still won’t know it.
You can also make it a statement of intent to commit or confession of an illegal act and the 5th protects you from being forced to say it.
Ijaywalk might do the trick
Biometrics are ids like a username, not secret and something you can’t change. Using them for passwords has risks.
What happened to being secure in our documents and personal affects?
Is the constitution a joke to you?
US “constitution” sounds honestly like a joke to me
Payne conceded that “the use of biometrics to open an electronic device is akin to providing a physical key to a safe” but argued it is still a testimonial act because it “simultaneously confirm[s] ownership and authentication of its contents,” the court said. “However, Payne was never compelled to acknowledge the existence of any incriminating information. He merely had to provide access to a source of potential information.”
If you can be compelled to hand over a key to a safe, I can see how that translates to putting your thumb on the scanner.
In this case, the defendant was on parole, so there was already a court order allowing the search of his devices.
The constitution is only used to protect property rights of the owners and the power of managers. The working class is not often afforded it’s protections.
Never use biometrics to lock anything. You can be forced to push a finger to a sensor, or your head forcibly held still for a facial scan.
Only use passwords/passcords. only they are secure against this totalitarian bullshit.
They’ll still put you in jail on fake charges if you refuse to give your passcode, but at least your datas safe and now your case is unlawful imprisonment instead of relying on octogenarian judges thinking its okay to force compliance with a biometric.
This ⬆️
Or that? Come on with this stupid Facebook shit comments.
Only use passwords/passcords. only they are secure against this totalitarian bullshit.
Oh sweet summer child. Password is as easily beaten out of you as biometric.
If we’re talking about a situation where they can just straight up beat you legally until you give them a passcode, then what’s on your phone likely doesn’t make a difference in the outcome.
Oh it does. It could be some information throwing shade on other people
Obligatory XKCD https://xkcd.com/538/
I feel like this has always been the case? There’s not a lot of precedence to be sure, but people have been operating under that assumption for a long time.
That’s why, if you need to keep the cops from looking in your phone, you should use a password. Can’t be compelled to give a password.
The classic example is a safe. There’s tons of court precedence that you can be compelled to give the cops a physical key to unlock it if there is one, but you can’t be compelled to tell them the combo if it’s a dial lock.
Fingerprint unlocking is always secondary to there being a pin which is equivalent to a password.
As long as you turn your phone off before approaching/being approached by cops, or before they demand that you unlock it, you’ll be fine. You don’t even have to take it out of your pocket or look at it to turn it off, just hold the power button for a few seconds.
If you’re even more paranoid, enable the setting that requires a PIN code to reactivate the fingerprint unlock after 30 minutes or something.
Or force it to demand the pin after a single failure of the fingerprint unlock and then let your finger kind of slip when they tell you to unlock it.
There are countless ways to mitigate the risks here. You don’t have to forgo fingerprint unlock entirely.
I use tasker to automatically lockdown my phone if it experiences too much acceleration. I figure that if I’m being thrown to the ground, I probably want to lockdown my phone. A sharp tap on my pocket works pretty well too.
Or instead of powering off, enable lockdown mode.
Finally someone that commented with a keyword I could search for in my settings (Samsung). Thank you!
Is this some weird free speech thing?
Nah, it’s the 5th Amendment. The right against self incrimination. You can’t be forced to testify against yourself.
Basically, I can’t put you on the stand in the court room and be like, “did you do it?”
You’re always aloud to just stay silent and make the prosecution have to prove their case without your help.
But they are allowed to search you physically and take any physical things they want as evidence, be it a ring of keys or your fingerprint.
To add onto that, it doesn’t prevent them from breaking into a phone or safe. If they have probable cause or a warrant to search either, they have the legal right to search them. Whether they choose to search them or not given this probable cause depends on the crime being investigated, the difficulty of successfully obtaining the contents, and overall desire to solve the crime/fuck with you. They probably aren’t drilling out a huge safe for a jaywalking case. For a murder case, they are probably leaving you with a broken and useless safe and all the contents confiscated.
Note that in many jurisdictions you must invoke your right of silence. Other countries often have similar laws and requirements too.
It’s also highly dependent on how incredibly racist the judge and cops are. Warren Demesme had his 5th amendment rights taken away from him because he demanded, quote, “a lawyer, dawg.” The Louisiana supreme court, who I’m legally not allowed to voice my opinions on, pretended that this was in some way ambiguous, and so his statements made after this clear demand for a lawyer could still be used against him in court.
I think it’s a fifth amendment thing about not having to incriminate yourself.
Don’t use biometrics.
Period.
Full stop.
Biometrics are fine, just use lockdown of you get pulled over or are going throgh TSA.
You can still activate the camera/camcoder by double tapping power on a Pixel even in lockdown.
I love the confidence that a US cop or CBP agent are going to allow you to lock your phone while they’re asking you to hand it to them.
Biometrics is not security. Biometrics is ease of access. It’s literally designed to make your phone easier to access for you and by extension for a low skilled strong arm attacker or jack booted neo-fascist police state cop or border agent, a high skilled hacker, or a nation state actor. If your intention is to make your device easy to access, congratulations, biometrics is the right choice.
It’s not that hard. See the lights on behind you, pull over and lock your phone.
Ok. Do that.
I love the confidence that a US cop or CBP agent are going to allow you to lock your phone while they’re asking you to hand it to them.
They’re not ninjas dropping out of trees at random moments demanding your phone.
What is the scenario that you’re picturing here where the person with the phone had literally no warning and no time to activate the lockdown? Turning your phone off takes like 5 seconds.
Is it technically less secure? Yes.
Is there any reason for the vast majority of people to assume they will ever be in an arrest situation where they won’t have adequate time to turn off their phone? No.
I’m all for being paranoid and cautious but this idea that convenience must always bow to absolute security is an absolute pox on the tech industry. There is such a thing a reasonable risk. You’re engaging in that yourself for even owning a mobile device that some jack booted neofacist could pluck out of your hands.
“Hand me your phone, please.”
low skilled strong arm attacker or jack booted neo-fascist police state cop or border agent,
Bless your heart. Those bad people will just beat the password out of you without sweating.
Did you read the article? US police and CBP can point your phone at your face or force your finger onto the scanner to unlock your device against your will.
Did you read the quoted part of my comment?
I did better than read it, I wrote it but more importantly I understood it.
Just restarting also works
But Gym Jordan can ignore a congressional subpoena. Chyea I’m not giving my thumbprint.
Removed by mod
Is there a way to set up multiple user profiles for the same phone, activated by different prints/PINs?
Then you could have your main profile unlocked by like your ring finger print; but if you scan your thumb or index, it’ll unlock basically a dummy account with some bullshit apps and contacts and nothing else.
Like the phone equivalent of a throw wallet with a few bucks and an expired credit card or two so you have something to surrender in the event of getting mugged, without losing anything of actual value.
I don’t know of how to do that without visibly switching accounts, but I believe the GrapheneOS folks are prepping a “duress PIN” for the next major release. I’m not 100% sure of what it entails but could have a similar end result to what you’re after
That would be cool enough to get me off my ass tbh
The problem there would be if they have told you to unlock the device and you do something to further lock it down, and they can prove that you did that (like there’s some big letters on the lock screen that say “lockdown initiated” or something), that can be considered obstruction.
To picture it another way, imagine you had the one key to your vault, they order you to unlock it, and you swallow the key.
It’s kind of in the same way that you can destroy evidence at any time until an investigation has started or you have a reasonable belief that one is about to start. At that point, destroying the evidence would get you in trouble.
Depends a bit on your threat model I suppose. Journalist protecting a source? Probably helpful. Getting mugged? Helpful for preventing ID theft, but potentially increased risk of physical harm. Political dissident covering up regionally unprotected speech? Obstruction charge may be less harmful than the alternative. Wall Street trader shredding insider trading documents? Obstruction charge may be worse.
This is a gross oversimplification but shows how it could be helpful even if it isn’t ideal in every situation.
BlackBerry devices had this.
They had a “under duress but unlock” PIN and a “under duress and wipe device now” PIN. You needed their enterprise management server to configure it.
There is. ColorOS by Oppo have that feature
this is the way.
regardless of what the law says, at least where i live, cops will compel you to unlock it anyway if they decide to. this feature is a must.
Don’t use fingerprint to unlock phone. They can force your fingerprint, but they can’t force your password … So just use a password. Problem solved
Edit: wow pulptastic shared this gem: Power+volume up > lockdown
My original comment: Restart your phone if they ask for it. Then it will need a passcode and can’t be unlocked by a fingerprint
They can beat the shit out of you - along with the password
ACAB
All courts are bastards?
All Canadians are Bipedal
Well that’s ablist. :P
This reminded me, sorta unrelated but the ff14 community is incredibly ableist when it comes to gameplay. Don’t you dare mention combat macros cause they’ll all start screeching at you. Never mind that you have arthritis and carpal tunnel and just want to play without much pain from spamming.
Even the wow community wasn’t bad at this, plenty of sites and people willing to help, iirc they even helped a quadriplegic play wow.
The only time I ever saw mention of macros being an issue I ever saw was from super sweaty guilds, where every ounce of performance was needed. During any sane, reasonable play session, I’ve never seen anyone mention them.
I’ve encountered it in the wild a bit. Most of the time it’s regular people parroting the sweatys but it’s still ableist. Even my lovely but terrible gamer girlfriend told me I shouldn’t use combat macros and then I lovingly told her she sucks and that some macros could help her. She often forgets to use ogcd spells and I weaved a couple in her regular filler spell. Her dummy damage actually went up. I’m all for doing stuff that help people regardless of the reason.
I don’t even think anyone would ever notice in a regular play session. Which makes it weirder they get all aggro about it online.
I may have just stopped too early to have gotten it in game. I only got to… The one after heavensward lol. But yeah, anyone who wants to complain about it, they can pound sand lol
I cannot hear the word bipedal without thinking of Metal Gear lol. Idk why, it’s not like they’re the only giant bipedal robots in fiction
!
So when comes the ruling that they can just straight up execute you without having to do the hustle of a fake investigation on themselves?
Justice has a price. That price is freedom
Yikes. imagine actually believing something like that
It’s a quote from judge dread. Seems it went over pretty Badly :(
True. The price of both justice and freedom is blood, but it’s been a long time since the common person thought that way.
Turn on pin-secured boot and shut off the phone and a fingerprint should be useless now, right? And don’t the cops have a lot people’s fingerprints on record? Are we just waiting for a cop with a higher than room temperature IQ to come up with a duplicating method to get in people’s phones without warrant or even probable cause?
The initial pin that most folks have to enter is needed to decrypt the partition with user data. This is not 100% foolproof for keeping LEOs out since there are many known, and likely more unknown, ways to brute force these but it is still the best option.
If you have the time?
Luckily LineageOS and GrapheneOS have a lockdown mode (Graphene also supports disabling fingerprint for screen unlock), though rebooting your phone usually doesn’t cause you to lose any work since everything autosaves as phones kill background apps to save battery and memory. Separate user profiles for situations like protests or certain contexts (preferably with some dummy data to make it not look to sus) are also useful.
to lose* any work
It’s very unlikely the OS actually kills apps in the background as that would legitimately break many apps and is a source of frustration from other OEMs.
There’s a difference between killing an app and putting it into a less active state.
When you swipe an app away from your recent lists, it’s not actually killing it, its just putting it in a different state.
When your force stop an app from its info under settings, you’re actually killing it. Nothing about it is alive.
When you actually kill an app, things like alarms stop functioning. The app needs to be alive for the alarm to function. Even so much that when you set an alarm on your phone, you need to set the alarm again after rebooting as they arent permanently stored and if the phone is rebooted the app needs to be woken up and the alarms re set. There’s a whole development workflow to do that.
There was a brief period many years ago when an OEM actually force killed an app when swiped away from recents without fully understanding the implications and they later reverted the change.
Push notifications of any type would also completely cease functioning.
I always hated how android phones seem to have everything running. This certainly explains why there is no proper task manager in them.
Fuck America
Turn your phone off before handover. They require pin at power on, which at least at this time cannot be compelled.
One second officer, let me just power down my phone real quick.
What percent of arrests do you suppose happen with SWAT storming your house with flashbangs?
No idea. But it’s worth considering that there are cases where you might not have the opportunity to power it down.
And what are the percentage of those cases?
The percentage is non-zero. But if you are really concerned about the percentage, you probably shouldn’t rely on this method. It’s a judgement call.
Power+volume up > lockdown
This is extremely dependent on what phone you’re using
I think it’s pretty much every modern android, no?
This has been a feature on my last pixel phones as well as my latest Sony android phones
Doesn’t seem to do anything on my samsung phone, but maybe that’s because I don’t have biometrics on
Huh, perhaps Samsung just changed the button combo as they’ve been known to do? 🤔
Didn’t work for me
You have to keep them pressed until the turn off screen appears, then just cancel the turning off
Not for me. Turn off screen only appears after holding power down for a second (and gives lockdown option). Power+vol up does nothing.
What iPhone you have?
None at the moment, meant on Android. At the time it wasn’t clear what platform they meant.
Is this an iPhone or Android thing?
Edit:
On my pixel 6 I see this. I have no idea what this is or what it does
Edit 2:
"When you put the phone into “Lockdown,” it disables all those less-secure unlock methods. The fingerprint scanner, face unlock, and Smart Lock are completely disabled. Only the PIN, pattern, and password can be used. "
I assumed android because we’re on lemmy but I bet it’s an iPhone thing.
I’ll stick with power off or reset since that’ll force a pin.
Power and volume up for me shows a lockdown button so it’s either android or both.
So tempting just to reply ‘yes’ :)
But it’s iPhone at least.
Volume up and lock shows lockdown on my pixel 6 so it’s either android or both.
It turns on vibrate mode for me, and power + volume down makes a screenshot
Thanks for the reminder
