I didn’t know lemmy was full of anti maskers. Wear a mask ffs. You should have kn95s or n95s. They work and prevent all sorts of illness. Even a regular mask works better than nothing. They did plenty of studies.
I don’t wear one in my day-to-day, but I’m certainly not going to begrudge somebody for wearing one, and you can be sure I’m gonna have em around for flu season, COVID or no.
The problem is masks got politicized by assholes that want to be contrarian for the sake of preserving their paradigm, their worldview.
These are people so mentally weak and reliant on the lifestyle they’ve grown accustomed to that when something like a plague comes around, it shifts their paradigm so fuckin’ hard that they have to tell themselves the science is wrong and everybody is going to be fine. I suppose the other part of it is treating your national politics like a fuckin’ football game, but that doesn’t even warrant discussing because it’s so goddamn obvious and pervasive.
Now imagine, as a hypothetical scenario, the government tells us aliens are real one day, and they’re here. Watch these people really lose it. Wouldn’t know whether to shit or go blind.
Edit: As for the people that are just genuinely tired of hearing about it, be it on here, Reddit, or else where… Pull the fucking plug and let everything go for a bit. Decompress. You don’t have to be online and connected to everything every minute of your boredom or free time.
There’s no lockdown anymore. Go touch grass.
I’m not an anti masker, wore mine for 3 solid years, but definitely tired of it. And we can’t wear a mask forever.
I can understand if I’m sick or regularly near someone who is sick, but day to day is too much. Especially in my line of work, where I’m working in the heat doing physical work.
Why can’t we wear masks in public forever? Do you wear pants in public? Shoes?
If you are in an open space outdoors distanced from people, like most hard labor, you probably don’t need to be masked. But white collar jobs in coffee proximity to each other?
I should ask this, how long do you typically wear a mask for when you do wear one?
I had to wear it for 8-12 hours a day while at work. My sinuses were clogged up by the end of the day, acne all over my face, and the mask venting into my eyes was causing an stye to develop on my eyelid.
The anti maskers/vaxxers are just loud and like to make their opinion known. I don’t really give a fuck anymore who wears a mask or not, I just stay safe and try to keep others safe. People are gonna be dumb no matter what you do. Just wish they weren’t so fucking vocal about pushing misinformation, while being so confidently incorrect.
I really like the KF94’s personally, they’re more comfortable for me. Definitely look into them if you haven’t already!
Edit: By looking at your upvotes vs the loud minority, you can tell what people around here think lol. A lot of instances don’t allow downvotes (mine for one), so upvotes are the only option
KF94’s are also equally effective (and similar in comfort to KN95’s.) There are concerns about counterfeits of KN95’s in general and masks made in China in general though so KR95’s (Korean) made in Korea or n95s made not in China are more reliable options.
Even a counterfeit mask claiming to be any of the above is likely to be alrightish and far better than nothing.
What you want to look for generally is a triple-layer (or more) mask that is made from non-woven/melt-blown material that gets a good seal. Beyond that just finding something you can afford, reliably get and feel comfortable wearing are kind of the next most important things to look for (the mask you wear is always better than the one you don’t!)
False information. Masks made in China are perfectly fine. The majority of N95 respirators (and masks in general) are made in China. In fact the numbers in the name is part of the Chinese Filtration Index.
KN95, KN95S, KR95, KF94 all follow the same index.
N95 respirators will always be the best option, but they require a shaved face and are very uncomfortable.
No, your immunity to viral infections doesn’t last forever. Cultures around the world wear masks when they are out in close proximity or if they are sick and you don’t see higher infection rates among them. Japan is a culture famous for wearing masks and they have a lower infection rate overall.
I think the newest Cochrane medical study rated n95 as 18% effective and regular masks 5% effective against covid, btw. Better than nothing, yes, but worth it?
Other studies show that in health-care workers, n95 vs medical masks made almost no statistical difference.
However, the use of masks in the public is not necessarily to protect yourself. It’s to keep you from spreading germs in a wide range if you cough. It’s the same concept as herd immunity with vaccinations. We all help protect each other.
I mean sorry but are you wearing a helmet every day at your desk? There is surely a 0.01% chance that it prevents some minor headinjury from a colleague bumping into you
WAIT?! You made this comment an hour after I quoted and linked to the clarification from Cochrane that it is a misunderstanding that their study says cloth masks are not effective in response to ONE OF YOUR comments.
Have YOU read THAT?!
Don’t be out here saying “OMG have you readed what Cochrane said about it?!” when not only have you misread it but also seemingly not read Cochrane’s attempt to gently explain that to you!
A cloth mask is effective, read the Cochrane statement.
That’s not what the science says. It seems logical, but the mask is supposed to protect the wearer from external shit. It seems logical that it would slow down the spread if an infected individual wears a mask, but the science is far from clear on this after a multi year long pandemic. If a mask makes you feel better, then wear it, but it’s not evident that it plays a big role when it comes to respiratory viruses.
There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI and laboratory-confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. Harms associated with physical interventions were under-investigated.
Clearly you haven’t read the review I linked. I guess people struggle with reading the literature so they spew shit that, while logical, is simply false.
i’m not an anti-vaxxer, ut I do refuse to have my DNA modified by a vaccine. Not only that the risks associated with the vaccines for covid are too high for my health. I’ve already had 2 heart attacks, I don’t need a vaccine to increase the risk of another one.
during the pandemic, before the lockdowns were completely lifted, I wore my mask for the sake of others. Not all anti-vaxxers can be lumped into your last comment. Oh and btw, I’ve had covid twice, once before it was even listed as a pandemic, and it did not put me in the hospital, but it did make me feel worse than if I had the flu.
also, on another note, I thought the vaccine was supposed to HELP defeat Covid? Obviously that was a lie. Everytime a new variant comes around, all of a sudden you need another booster shot which has not been “programmed” to help with the new variant. At this point the covid vaccine is nothing more than a cash grab for big pharma.
I think the newest Cochrane medical study rated n95 as 18% effective and regular masks 5% effective against covid, btw.
Lots of people seem to have picked up the idea that the recent Cochrane report states that the evidence shows masks not to be effective that but it is a misunderstanding (largely it just seems to claim that the various studies it found on the various topics they were looking at were mostly useless for drawing any sort of conclusion about the matter.)
The text of the statement on the matter from Cochrane from the above link:
Statement on ‘Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses’ review
logo
The Cochrane Review ‘Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses’ was published in January 2023 and has been widely misinterpreted.
Karla Soares-Weiser, Editor-in-Chief of the Cochrane Library, has responded on behalf of Cochrane:
"Many commentators have claimed that a recently-updated Cochrane Review shows that ‘masks don’t work’, which is an inaccurate and misleading interpretation.
It would be accurate to say that the review examined whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses, and that the results were inconclusive. Given the limitations in the primary evidence, the review is not able to address the question of whether mask-wearing itself reduces people’s risk of contracting or spreading respiratory viruses.
The review authors are clear on the limitations in the abstract: ‘The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.’ Adherence in this context refers to the number of people who actually wore the provided masks when encouraged to do so as part of the intervention. For example, in the most heavily-weighted trial of interventions to promote community mask wearing, 42.3% of people in the intervention arm wore masks compared to 13.3% of those in the control arm.
The original Plain Language Summary for this review stated that ‘We are uncertain whether wearing masks or N95/P2 respirators helps to slow the spread of respiratory viruses based on the studies we assessed.’ This wording was open to misinterpretation, for which we apologize. While scientific evidence is never immune to misinterpretation, we take responsibility for not making the wording clearer from the outset. We are engaging with the review authors with the aim of updating the Plain Language Summary and abstract to make clear that the review looked at whether interventions to promote mask wearing help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses."
You are not up to date. The science on whether mass masking is effective is far from settled and the biggest reviews of the literature strongly suggest that masks are not effective in preventing or slowing the spread of respiratory viruses. See below.
The Cochrane Review is highly respected in the medical community. The authors, after a massive study, write the following:
We are uncertain whether wearing masks or N95/P2 respirators helps to slow the spread of respiratory viruses based on the studies we assessed.
There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI and laboratory-confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. Harms associated with physical interventions were under-investigated.
Stop posting this all over the place. Masks clearly work, unless you like randos sneezing and coughing all over you. It catches all the phlegm.
Also, it prevents the smells of anti-maskers from reaching your nose. They can be pretty bad. You wear clothes over literally every other part of your body. Why do you think your face is different?
“Stop posting something that, while scientific and deeply rigorous, goes against my deep seated and unchangeable views. I can’t handle it with my weak, feeble mind!”
It is scientific and rigorous. You’ve not understood it correctly and Cochrane have been explicit about the fact of that misunderstanding. They are not saying the things you think they are saying.
The editor in chief was covering her ass due to the political nature of the results. All she attempts to say is “we don’t have conclusive evidence that masks are not effective”
No shit. The review said the same thing. The point is that the large scale study showed no effects of masking. That is, they weren’t sure if they helped or not. That means there is no conclusive evidence, still, after 2 years, that masks are an effective population level intervention.
“But I wear my cloth mask just to be safe.” Okay. You do you. But just know there is no conclusive evidence that it works. Might as well stay in your room, locked for life. Just to be safe.
You’ve been corrected multiple times with excerpts from the authors of the study you’re parroting all over this thread. And yet you just keep posting the same shit, not acknowledging the people who are refuting your claims.
I haven’t been corrected. The farthest anyone has gone was post the editorial comment or highlight that the Cochrane review said “we don’t think masks made any difference but we don’t really know because we need more studies”. Don’t you think it’s pretty damning that, after 2 years, they still don’t know whether masks are effective at the population level? So you are just gonna argue “just to be safe!”
No. I don’t live my life by that mantra. Read Haidt’s The coddling of the American mind.
I don’t understand people downvoting without correcting. This way this wrong information stands here, seemingly scientifically sound as a study is linked, contradicted only by votes and words.
Thank you @[email protected] for looking at the study and noting its limits here.
Some studies exist that measured no benefits of masks under certain circumstances. E.g. only evaluating complete protection. But few also seem to be sound at first glance. E.g. one looking at effects of a mask requirement in Bexar County, TX.
Many of the negative result studies focus on cloth face masks, one even suggesting they increase risk.
Many studies and metastudies with generally more sound methods suggest mask are effective at preventing spread and limiting mortality.
Conclusion: Masks, excluding simple cloth masks, are likely quite effective. More research is needed.
Your conclusion, in respect to the highly detailed Cochrane review, is extremely wrong. I don’t know how people like you come up with this logic. It’s bizarre. Cloth masks have been proven to be in effective time and time again and you keep promoting them. It’s ridiculous.
It’s not seemingly scientific, the study I linked is the best study we have and it came up with “masks don’t seem to help for reducing the spread of respiratory viruses.” Yet you spew the same bullshit we had at the beginning of the pandemic that wasn’t researched.
Luckily I live in a place where it will be highly unlikely for some ridiculous mandate. Hopefully you live in a place that will mandate this shit for the rest of your life so you can live in the dystopia you want to live in. Leave the rest of us alone.
It seems you have not read my post or the study in detail.
Indeed it seems that cloth masks are not very or even not effective. But, and that’s a big but: FFP2/KN95 Masks seem to be quite effective.
The Cochrane study authors themselves note the low confidence they have in their results. The sample size is quite small (e.g. only 8407 people in summary over all studies they evaluated for FFP2 masks) They even got the result that handwashing has no benefits.
In Contrast the studies in the metastudy I linked work with far larger sample sizes.
I won’t respond anymore after this comment as you seem agitated and resort to personal attacks which won’t lead to a productive discussion. I hope you find a calmer moment to consider the evidence studies have gathered and overthink your position.
Largely what the Cochrane report appears to say is that these studies aren’t actually suitable to draw firm conclusions from (which is what all the talk of “evidence” are about. They mean that the studies they read don’t have sufficient evidence to support their own claims and that while Cochrane can therefore tell us “study X had conclusion Y” they and we shouldn’t assume that’s actually correct as “study X” wasn’t actually very good.)
My whole point is that the scientific consensus on whether masks make a difference at the population level for respiratory illnesses is inconclusive. So why should governments continue mandating them? “Just to be safe” is not a sound argument, especially when the intervention is so drastic against the human condition.
I love showing my face and seeing other people’s’ faces. It angers me that so many people don’t care about faces. I find these folk to be expressively anti-human and it angers me. Masks limit human expression. They dull human life.
“The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.”
“Our confidence in these results is generally low to moderate for the subjective outcomes related to respiratory illness, but moderate for the more precisely defined laboratory-confirmed respiratory virus infection, related to masks and N95/P2 respirators.”
You failed to mention that part when you quoted the study. Good thing not everyone is a health care worker huh?
In addition to Macros’s comment explaining some of the details around what the specific claims of that report are, here is the statement from Cochrane explicitly saying that people have misunderstood the report in claiming it says masks aren’t effective (and taking ownership of the fact that this is at least in part because of issues with how clearly the report communicates it’s findings.)
The science on whether mass masking is effective is far from settled
Be kind and wear a mask until it’s settled that they don’t help. What we know for sure is that it’s very hard to measure whether they’re effective or not.
FWIW, they definitely do work. The issue is that it’s quite hard to produce effective studies to confirm if they work one way or another to point to to say “see, we’ve proved they work, now put one on!”
To err always on the side of caution, especially when it comes to denying a very human expression (one’s face) is not a good way to live. If we erred on the side of caution for everything, it would be a meaningless life. Life involves risks. It’s very low risk to not wear a mask.
I didn’t know lemmy was full of anti maskers. Wear a mask ffs. You should have kn95s or n95s. They work and prevent all sorts of illness. Even a regular mask works better than nothing. They did plenty of studies.
I don’t wear one in my day-to-day, but I’m certainly not going to begrudge somebody for wearing one, and you can be sure I’m gonna have em around for flu season, COVID or no.
The problem is masks got politicized by assholes that want to be contrarian for the sake of preserving their paradigm, their worldview.
These are people so mentally weak and reliant on the lifestyle they’ve grown accustomed to that when something like a plague comes around, it shifts their paradigm so fuckin’ hard that they have to tell themselves the science is wrong and everybody is going to be fine. I suppose the other part of it is treating your national politics like a fuckin’ football game, but that doesn’t even warrant discussing because it’s so goddamn obvious and pervasive.
Now imagine, as a hypothetical scenario, the government tells us aliens are real one day, and they’re here. Watch these people really lose it. Wouldn’t know whether to shit or go blind.
Edit: As for the people that are just genuinely tired of hearing about it, be it on here, Reddit, or else where… Pull the fucking plug and let everything go for a bit. Decompress. You don’t have to be online and connected to everything every minute of your boredom or free time.
There’s no lockdown anymore. Go touch grass.
I’m not an anti masker, wore mine for 3 solid years, but definitely tired of it. And we can’t wear a mask forever.
I can understand if I’m sick or regularly near someone who is sick, but day to day is too much. Especially in my line of work, where I’m working in the heat doing physical work.
Why not? If its flu season you should just mask up.
Why can’t we wear masks in public forever? Do you wear pants in public? Shoes?
If you are in an open space outdoors distanced from people, like most hard labor, you probably don’t need to be masked. But white collar jobs in coffee proximity to each other?
I should ask this, how long do you typically wear a mask for when you do wear one?
I had to wear it for 8-12 hours a day while at work. My sinuses were clogged up by the end of the day, acne all over my face, and the mask venting into my eyes was causing an stye to develop on my eyelid.
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The anti maskers/vaxxers are just loud and like to make their opinion known. I don’t really give a fuck anymore who wears a mask or not, I just stay safe and try to keep others safe. People are gonna be dumb no matter what you do. Just wish they weren’t so fucking vocal about pushing misinformation, while being so confidently incorrect.
I really like the KF94’s personally, they’re more comfortable for me. Definitely look into them if you haven’t already!
Edit: By looking at your upvotes vs the loud minority, you can tell what people around here think lol. A lot of instances don’t allow downvotes (mine for one), so upvotes are the only option
KF94’s are also equally effective (and similar in comfort to KN95’s.) There are concerns about counterfeits of KN95’s in general and masks made in China in general though so KR95’s (Korean) made in Korea or n95s made not in China are more reliable options.
Even a counterfeit mask claiming to be any of the above is likely to be alrightish and far better than nothing.
What you want to look for generally is a triple-layer (or more) mask that is made from non-woven/melt-blown material that gets a good seal. Beyond that just finding something you can afford, reliably get and feel comfortable wearing are kind of the next most important things to look for (the mask you wear is always better than the one you don’t!)
False information. Masks made in China are perfectly fine. The majority of N95 respirators (and masks in general) are made in China. In fact the numbers in the name is part of the Chinese Filtration Index.
KN95, KN95S, KR95, KF94 all follow the same index.
N95 respirators will always be the best option, but they require a shaved face and are very uncomfortable.
How dare people have a personal choice
Lol not really how it works in a society with choices that kill people. Driving without a seatbelt is illegal. Drinking and driving is illegal.
Is there no risk to weaken your immune system by continuously wearing masks even outside epidemic waves?
No, your immunity to viral infections doesn’t last forever. Cultures around the world wear masks when they are out in close proximity or if they are sick and you don’t see higher infection rates among them. Japan is a culture famous for wearing masks and they have a lower infection rate overall.
No. Masks do not weaken immune systems.
Found this study that claims it does, though I’m not knowledgeable enough to say if it is trustworthy. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34585544/
My issue with them is the plastic waste
I think the newest Cochrane medical study rated n95 as 18% effective and regular masks 5% effective against covid, btw. Better than nothing, yes, but worth it?
Other studies show that in health-care workers, n95 vs medical masks made almost no statistical difference.
However, the use of masks in the public is not necessarily to protect yourself. It’s to keep you from spreading germs in a wide range if you cough. It’s the same concept as herd immunity with vaccinations. We all help protect each other.
So with that in mind: wear a washable cloth mask.
I think the same Cochrane study said cloth masks are likely entirely ineffective
Even if they only prevent 0.01% of viruses, that is still better than nothing.
WEAR YOUR MASK
I mean sorry but are you wearing a helmet every day at your desk? There is surely a 0.01% chance that it prevents some minor headinjury from a colleague bumping into you
Waste of plastic no thanks
A cloth mask is a waste of plastic to you?
Most cloth contains plastic these days, so yes.
But you, a person who seemingly is very concerned about wasting plastic, are unable to select products that don’t contain it?
A cloth mask is not effective, read the Cochrane study
WAIT?! You made this comment an hour after I quoted and linked to the clarification from Cochrane that it is a misunderstanding that their study says cloth masks are not effective in response to ONE OF YOUR comments.
Have YOU read THAT?!
Don’t be out here saying “OMG have you readed what Cochrane said about it?!” when not only have you misread it but also seemingly not read Cochrane’s attempt to gently explain that to you!
A cloth mask is effective, read the Cochrane statement.
I have. That’s not what it says.
Ultimately, someone who is unwilling to wear anything but a natural fabric mask is still better in that mask than nothing.
That’s not what the science says. It seems logical, but the mask is supposed to protect the wearer from external shit. It seems logical that it would slow down the spread if an infected individual wears a mask, but the science is far from clear on this after a multi year long pandemic. If a mask makes you feel better, then wear it, but it’s not evident that it plays a big role when it comes to respiratory viruses.
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_do-physical-measures-such-hand-washing-or-wearing-masks-stop-or-slow-down-spread-respiratory-viruses
That is about you catching a disease while wearing masks.
While masks are to prevent OTHERS from catching your diseases.
I swear, anti-vaxxers really don’t understand how to READ.
Clearly you haven’t read the review I linked. I guess people struggle with reading the literature so they spew shit that, while logical, is simply false.
i’m not an anti-vaxxer, ut I do refuse to have my DNA modified by a vaccine. Not only that the risks associated with the vaccines for covid are too high for my health. I’ve already had 2 heart attacks, I don’t need a vaccine to increase the risk of another one.
during the pandemic, before the lockdowns were completely lifted, I wore my mask for the sake of others. Not all anti-vaxxers can be lumped into your last comment. Oh and btw, I’ve had covid twice, once before it was even listed as a pandemic, and it did not put me in the hospital, but it did make me feel worse than if I had the flu.
also, on another note, I thought the vaccine was supposed to HELP defeat Covid? Obviously that was a lie. Everytime a new variant comes around, all of a sudden you need another booster shot which has not been “programmed” to help with the new variant. At this point the covid vaccine is nothing more than a cash grab for big pharma.
Lol
Enjoy polluting the planet with plastic for no reason I guess
Yes. They are saying that the studies are rubbish and therefore they can’t be used to prove anything.
This is the most reputable medical study of masks, yet, you are downvoted
Welcome to lemmy
Cause you also are unable to READ.
What did I miss? I’ve read the entire study when it was released
You missed that it was about the efficacy of mask mandates, not masks themselves
Yeah. Haha. Another Reddit indeed. Glad there are a few intelligent people out there.
Lots of people seem to have picked up the idea that the recent Cochrane report states that the evidence shows masks not to be effective that but it is a misunderstanding (largely it just seems to claim that the various studies it found on the various topics they were looking at were mostly useless for drawing any sort of conclusion about the matter.)
Directly from the horse’s mouth: https://www.cochrane.org/news/statement-physical-interventions-interrupt-or-reduce-spread-respiratory-viruses-review
The text of the statement on the matter from Cochrane from the above link:
Ya, we’re not going to wear masks forever. Don’t be ridiculous.
No, just when you are sick or going to be in very close proximity.
That’s fine don’t wear a mask. Your forever will be shorter than mine.
You are not up to date. The science on whether mass masking is effective is far from settled and the biggest reviews of the literature strongly suggest that masks are not effective in preventing or slowing the spread of respiratory viruses. See below.
https://www.cochrane.org/CD006207/ARI_do-physical-measures-such-hand-washing-or-wearing-masks-stop-or-slow-down-spread-respiratory-viruses
The Cochrane Review is highly respected in the medical community. The authors, after a massive study, write the following:
Stop posting this all over the place. Masks clearly work, unless you like randos sneezing and coughing all over you. It catches all the phlegm.
Also, it prevents the smells of anti-maskers from reaching your nose. They can be pretty bad. You wear clothes over literally every other part of your body. Why do you think your face is different?
I’m all for wearing masks when needed but that last point is dumb. Facial expressions are a huge part of human communication.
“Stop posting something that, while scientific and deeply rigorous, goes against my deep seated and unchangeable views. I can’t handle it with my weak, feeble mind!”
It is scientific and rigorous. You’ve not understood it correctly and Cochrane have been explicit about the fact of that misunderstanding. They are not saying the things you think they are saying.
The editor in chief was covering her ass due to the political nature of the results. All she attempts to say is “we don’t have conclusive evidence that masks are not effective”
No shit. The review said the same thing. The point is that the large scale study showed no effects of masking. That is, they weren’t sure if they helped or not. That means there is no conclusive evidence, still, after 2 years, that masks are an effective population level intervention.
“But I wear my cloth mask just to be safe.” Okay. You do you. But just know there is no conclusive evidence that it works. Might as well stay in your room, locked for life. Just to be safe.
You’ve been corrected multiple times with excerpts from the authors of the study you’re parroting all over this thread. And yet you just keep posting the same shit, not acknowledging the people who are refuting your claims.
I haven’t been corrected. The farthest anyone has gone was post the editorial comment or highlight that the Cochrane review said “we don’t think masks made any difference but we don’t really know because we need more studies”. Don’t you think it’s pretty damning that, after 2 years, they still don’t know whether masks are effective at the population level? So you are just gonna argue “just to be safe!”
No. I don’t live my life by that mantra. Read Haidt’s The coddling of the American mind.
I don’t understand people downvoting without correcting. This way this wrong information stands here, seemingly scientifically sound as a study is linked, contradicted only by votes and words.
Thank you @[email protected] for looking at the study and noting its limits here.
If somebody wants to check for himself I suggest to take a look at https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/full/10.2217/fvl-2021-0032 A study which looks at many different studies and metastudies.
To summarize:
Conclusion: Masks, excluding simple cloth masks, are likely quite effective. More research is needed.
Your conclusion, in respect to the highly detailed Cochrane review, is extremely wrong. I don’t know how people like you come up with this logic. It’s bizarre. Cloth masks have been proven to be in effective time and time again and you keep promoting them. It’s ridiculous.
It’s not seemingly scientific, the study I linked is the best study we have and it came up with “masks don’t seem to help for reducing the spread of respiratory viruses.” Yet you spew the same bullshit we had at the beginning of the pandemic that wasn’t researched.
Luckily I live in a place where it will be highly unlikely for some ridiculous mandate. Hopefully you live in a place that will mandate this shit for the rest of your life so you can live in the dystopia you want to live in. Leave the rest of us alone.
It seems you have not read my post or the study in detail.
Indeed it seems that cloth masks are not very or even not effective. But, and that’s a big but: FFP2/KN95 Masks seem to be quite effective.
The Cochrane study authors themselves note the low confidence they have in their results. The sample size is quite small (e.g. only 8407 people in summary over all studies they evaluated for FFP2 masks) They even got the result that handwashing has no benefits.
In Contrast the studies in the metastudy I linked work with far larger sample sizes.
I won’t respond anymore after this comment as you seem agitated and resort to personal attacks which won’t lead to a productive discussion. I hope you find a calmer moment to consider the evidence studies have gathered and overthink your position.
Largely what the Cochrane report appears to say is that these studies aren’t actually suitable to draw firm conclusions from (which is what all the talk of “evidence” are about. They mean that the studies they read don’t have sufficient evidence to support their own claims and that while Cochrane can therefore tell us “study X had conclusion Y” they and we shouldn’t assume that’s actually correct as “study X” wasn’t actually very good.)
My whole point is that the scientific consensus on whether masks make a difference at the population level for respiratory illnesses is inconclusive. So why should governments continue mandating them? “Just to be safe” is not a sound argument, especially when the intervention is so drastic against the human condition.
I love showing my face and seeing other people’s’ faces. It angers me that so many people don’t care about faces. I find these folk to be expressively anti-human and it angers me. Masks limit human expression. They dull human life.
“The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.”
“Our confidence in these results is generally low to moderate for the subjective outcomes related to respiratory illness, but moderate for the more precisely defined laboratory-confirmed respiratory virus infection, related to masks and N95/P2 respirators.”
You failed to mention that part when you quoted the study. Good thing not everyone is a health care worker huh?
In addition to Macros’s comment explaining some of the details around what the specific claims of that report are, here is the statement from Cochrane explicitly saying that people have misunderstood the report in claiming it says masks aren’t effective (and taking ownership of the fact that this is at least in part because of issues with how clearly the report communicates it’s findings.)
https://www.cochrane.org/news/statement-physical-interventions-interrupt-or-reduce-spread-respiratory-viruses-review
Be kind and wear a mask until it’s settled that they don’t help. What we know for sure is that it’s very hard to measure whether they’re effective or not.
FWIW, they definitely do work. The issue is that it’s quite hard to produce effective studies to confirm if they work one way or another to point to to say “see, we’ve proved they work, now put one on!”
I love this bit; “The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited.”
So why, exactly, would you not err on the side of caution?
This makes no sense.
To err always on the side of caution, especially when it comes to denying a very human expression (one’s face) is not a good way to live. If we erred on the side of caution for everything, it would be a meaningless life. Life involves risks. It’s very low risk to not wear a mask.