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Prepare for the 14year Olds on hexbear to come in and pretend that China has a great government
Fidel Castro is morally superior to every US president.
Very interesting how all those “pretend socialists” only exist in the third world, and all the “real socialists” existin the west. Yet all the successful revolutions have been done in the third world by “pretend socialists”, and the so called “real socialists” in the west have accomplished nothing. Their biggest success of the “real socialists” in the west being capitalist welfare states or social democracies that rely on old school imperial relationships to fund their welfare in a select few areas.
No Eurocentrism present to this line of thought here at all…
What do you think of Nelson Mandela OP? He was a very good leader, right? You know that he considered Cuba an ally and supported their revolution as Cuba sent troops to fight against the apartheid government in the border wars, took inspiration from Mao and called the Chinese revolution a miracle, thanked the Soviets for giving unending support in the fight against apartheid while receiving the a Lenin Peace Prize? So is Nelson Mandela now a fascist according to your meme?
OP determining whether to believe the US about socialist movements
Also look up double genocide theory and stop trivializing the holocaust by calling communists fascists.
Cuba is a beacon of progress and humanity in the Americas. Fidel Castro was a hero. Also a pro at dodging the CIA’s kill squads.
I agree. Fascist countries like Denmark, Germany and Canada often get called “socialist” and they have been disastrous for the reputation of socialism.
You have a lifetime of anti communist propaganda to overcome. You’re close, take the last step and realize you’ve been lied to about AES countries. No place is a utopia, but those countries are lights in the dark.
The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
Repeating CIA approved talking points to own the Tankies
When you give everyone in your nation a house, food, and healthcare while protecting yourself from the West that’s actually fascism.
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You have socialism. Then you have capitalism pretending to be socialism ahem People’s Republic of China ahem.
Socialism is good, State Capitalism is trash.
Don’t even get me started on the ones who try to argue that “North Korea is more free and democratic than the US”.
You’d think that them having an absolute monarchy would be enough to make even tankies think twice.
don’t count on it. back before i switched instances i had to read hexbear users unironically praising china’s “democratic dictatorship.” highly recommend reading the wikipedia article on it; it’s actually incredibly uninformative.
edit, to be clear, it’s a lot of describing the history of the phrase and vague ideas about the interactions between “the bourgeoisie, proletariat, and economy,” with nothing at all about how it actually is implemented into the government and differs from a regular dictatorship in any way. probably because it doesn’t. here
Again hearing more about tankies but never encountering them. There must be some sort of cream for all that butt hurt you people have.
lmao i wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that your instance defederated them. it’s 90% of what they post
Sounds like your instance is small as shit and other small communities dominate the conversation while the rest of us don’t give a shit.
At the moment I’m writing this, 7 tankies have seen your comment
Well, that or Marx purists. Marx believed that the transition between capitalism and socialism would include a period where the state was fulfilling capitalist roles and run as the infamous “dictatorship of the proletariat.”
He never quite seems to explain how democracy arises from said dictatorship, or the people’s recourse when it inevitably corrupts.
Ahh thanks for the great reminder for all the tankies about communism failing for China and all these nations so they had to incorporate capitalism and allowed privatization of industries.
USSR did it, China did it, Vietnam did it, Cuba is doing it.
hexbear users can’t see this comment, so it falls on my sleep-deprived ass to point out that socialist nations essentially have two options: 1) ban all capitalism and be banned from trade in turn, like Cuba and the USSR, or 2) permit some measure of capitalism, give the west its profits, and use that as leverage to gain access to trade, like China and Vietnam. You either play ball or get strangled to death.
also the people that say socialism is fascism are the ones slowly taking our rights away.
You want to read what book? No we don’t like it. Who are you gonna have sex with? No we don’t like that…
You want water while waiting in line to vote in the same state where we shut down polling locations and tried to ‘find’ nonexistent votes? Nope, don’t like that ether!
Socialism can be good if the government doesn’t have to resort to totalitarianism to enforce it - and when has that ever happened? Rarely. Rarely.
Lol what, no that’s just the standard for communism lol
The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has “Democratic” in it’s name, but no reasonable person actually consider them democratic. Just because a country claims to be something, doesn’t make it true.
If China was Communist or Socialist, they wouldn’t have wealthy billionaires. It’s just a cover for their authoritarianism.
That’s not how communism ends up being, it looks great on paper but once a human element is added it goes it shit and some people will be richer than others. It doesn’t make what they have capitalism by any stretch. It’s got bits of the free market there but thinking they’ve got anything like capitalism in the West is a joke.
That’s not how communism ends up being
No, the countries you think are communist just were never actually communist they just claim to be or other people claim they are. There are very few actual communist countries, if there are any at all. To be communist you have to be classless with everyone equal to each other. China is not communist, Russia is not communist, Cuba is not communist.
Systems great on paper that turn out shit when exposed to reality are just that, shit.
Lol ahh yes the tankie excuse of “that’s not real communism”…no it’s real communism because that’s how it always turns out. Stop trying to defend the shit.
“that’s not real communism” is something no “tankie” ever said. It is strawman set up exactly by the people like those the original meme mock, the white westerner pseudoleft idealists.
All the countries mentioned in the original meme were/are socialist and it was/is glorious. Westolefto can eat shit, their succdem and ultra movements didn’t achieved even 1/1000 of what ML’s did.
There is a stage in the transition to communism called ‘the oppression of the proletariat’ aka ‘dictatorship’. Supposedly it should be a temporary stage before transitioning into a more decentralized type of government. As far as I am aware, not any communist revolution got beyond the dictatorship stage as absolute power corrupts.
Specifically “dictatorship of the proletariat”, which was basically an 1800s gothic way to say “direct democracy for workers”. Marx is somewhat infamous for the way he makes his ideas sound scarier than they are
And to clarify, most revolutions fail or adopt bureaucracy primarily to defend themselves from outside, capitalist influence, power corruption probably plays a part too but state power used by socialists is actually part of the plot
Very informative. I read the summarised work here that someone send me. And I have missed that nuance.
I also made a mistake and said “direct democracy for poor people” instead of “workers” so I went and edited that. whoops
Other than Fascists lying and claiming to be socialists. Because that’s something fascists do… they lie. All the time.
Or are you someone who thinks the “National Socialist Party” was socialists because the literal Nazis would never misrepresent themselves?
That hexbear instance is full of fascists claiming to be socialists LOL.
hexbear was unfederated for three years, are you saying they just sat around all that time pretending to be queer communists to each other with no audience? Would thousands of people really check in to a website daily or weekly for years just to do that?
I don’t think they are pretending to be those things. They truly believe themselves and their interpretation of Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, communism and socialist projects to be true and just.
The only issue is that they come from a specific strain of western leftist that got into the “uwu dank Soviet club” meme of the mid-10s and never evolved past that understanding of the people, projects, policies and states they stan like a fandom. They could take some lessons from the anarchists tbqh, but they’d rather post PPB and “liberals get the wall”. Very annoying.
they’d rather post PPB and “liberals get the wall”.
what do you want from them, a good faith response? when half the people they talk to are people like this guy? or people like you, who dismiss their views from a distance and respond with with superficial vibes-based criticisms while having little or no understanding of what they actually think or why?
I dismiss their views out of hand because I have history with people who espoused very similar views and they showed themselves to have a very superficial understanding of leftism, socialism, communism, and various leftist writers. They exalt historical figures of communist movements to apostolic, sometimes even deity-like status, and throw theory at people like it’s scripture. They take the counter to the west’s propaganda against communism to be full-throated propagandists for communist projects, even for valid criticisms.
But really, even if their political lens was the truest and freest, I still would not like them because they are fucking obnoxious and utterly insufferable. They larp on their local instance about “performing coups on other instances” and “doing the emotional labor of educating Lemmy users” when in reality they are abrasive, unpleasant people hamfistedly applying leftist social and economic critiques as a cudgel to dunk on people if they don’t automatically agree with them, be they fascist, racist, liberal or even leftist.
I saw the debacle with Blahaj and how Hexbear users acted. Whatever critique of their adminship could have been made is completely drowned out by the manipulative yet dense behavior of their accusers during and after.
What I want from them is to not immediately look for reasons to take the least charitable interpretation of someone’s point and derail threads, stop acting as if they own every single instance, stop larping as if they are building a leftist revolution across the fediverse and go outside, and to stop posting obnoxiously large server emojis all over every fucking thread.
It’s a distinct blend of the worst of Reddit communists and Twitter users and I don’t appreciate it when they decide to pull that nonsense in other instances beyond their own.
I dismiss their views out of hand
I don’t care what comes after this. I still read it, but I don’t care. “You knew some people, therefore hexbear is those people.”
they are fucking obnoxious
what do you say about the guy I linked to in the last comment? You don’t think hexbear’s obnoxiousness might be a reaction to years of talking to people like that? You don’t think maybe at this point they expect it and that’s why they’re flippant?
not immediately look for reasons to take the least charitable interpretation of someone’s point
look at how your own instance talks, this is absurdly hypocritical.
I don’t care what comes after this. I still read it, but I don’t care.
Cool, I suppose I shouldn’t take any of your arguments seriously then.
“You knew some people, therefore hexbear is those people.”
No, I knew some people who showed bad behavior, and Hexbear users are showing similar behavior.
what do you say about the guy I linked to in the last comment?
Yeah, they’re somewhat obnoxious. It’s annoying to see communists lumped in widely with fascists. They aren’t 14-year-old Stalin-fancam sea-lion-posting-in-every-Lemmy-instance obnoxious though.
You don’t think hexbear’s obnoxiousness might be a reaction to years of talking to people like that? You don’t think maybe at this point they expect it and that’s why they’re flippant?
Maybe it is a reaction to to people like that. I do not give a fuck. Unless they’re picking beef with long-storied rivals, everyone else has been here for 2-3 months, maybe less. We are not the collective animus of every anti-communist they’ve ever met. We’re people here to form link aggregator communities, and it’s unacceptable for them to treat people here as punching bags for their past frustrations just because they have a bit of social power here.
There’s a wide range of people with political opinions here, and left-wing populism is quite popular here. If they changed their engagement, more people would be amenable to their community. But if they insist on acting the fool, they will eventually be sent back to the circus.
look at how your own instance talks, this is absurdly hypocritical.
Talk like what, furries? They’re mostly nerds, not much political discourse there. Small twinge of liberalism/leftism maybe.
Sure. Fellowship is an important part of maintaining a weird cult-like ideological stance.
Also we can’t ignore the fact that there’s some national interest juice behind this. China being a fascist country that’s claiming to be communist to maintain legitimacy (and maintain power for the elites in that country) means there’s significant resources that can be used to maintain the narrative that fascism branded as socialism is a good thing.
And dumb people love the idea that they’re the small group that is getting things right, it’s just the rest of the world that’s wrong. See flat earthers, qanon, etc. They get in their little community where (unlike the rest of the world) no one tells them they’re an idiot when they say their stupid bullshit. All they have to do is conform to the overall narrative the community is centered around and they don’t need to do any critical thinking, and gain a sense of acceptance despite being an idiot.
imagine how awful it would be to spend hours in a long back and forth with someone like this trying to convince them that you have a nuanced perspective and justifications for it and you are not a stupid, monstrous, cult-like fanatic, all while they do not listen to you because they already know you are those things and therefore nothing you say is worth considering
Kind of what political discourse is on social media. Saying things to appease with the network your account is in so you can continue to accepted by them. Most prominent social media “personalities” don’t care about the issues, but only want to appear to care about the issues.
I’d much prefer to talk to someone that honestly disagrees with me rather than someone who’s disagreement is performative in order to please their friend network. It’s possible (though maybe still unlikely) to convince someone who is honest about their views. Someone that’s performative will continue to disagree because you aren’t the one they’re really talking to. It’s the “friend” network they’re always speaking to regardless of who’s comment they’re placing theirs under.
Such is social media.
it’s not performative when hexbear disagrees with you, that’s just you assuming things again.
tell that to mao and stalin
As long as you properly label China and Russia fascist authoritarian because they have a boner for racism and bigotry.
Venezuela would like a word
Oh shit it’s the person from the original meme
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It’s funny that somebody who has made his account on here entirely to spread anti-communist propaganda calls other people a fascist. You’re equating the people who built Auschwitz with those who liberated it, you’re effectively a holocaust denier and a nazi. Eat shit and die, you fascist pig with your transparent wrecking attempts.
a lot of people in this thread should be thrown into volcanos to please the economy
You’re equating the people who built Auschwitz with those who liberated it
And then went on to commit a ton of their own genocide. I can’t believe you actually used this as an excuse to not call them facists. You’re just another tankie who is in complete denial about history and reality.
Only one who should eat shit and die is stupid ignorant facists tankies like you.
What makes them a fascist, genuine question? I looked through their profile but couldn’t find anything that would make me think they’re fascist, just edgy Leftist humor. Do you say that simply just because they’re on hexbear?
And what do you politically identify as? I could find even less about you to understand any of your politics.
I haven’t seen any fascists, as far as I’m aware, on hexbear but I hate fascism so I’d be willing to agree with you if you can explain.
The only open-ish fascist I have seen on lemmy in a while was that dude on the Japan thread sneering about third world immigrants ruining society
Hmmm. Doesn’t sound like the kinds of ideas that Japan would be open towards.
strike two
Slow down there buddy
NCDer
What does this mean I’ve never heard of it
Non-credible defense. It’s a millitary/conflict themed shit-posting community that started on on Reddit
The most active NCD lemmy community is on [email protected]
Wait, this person who is bragging about going on a forum for praising NATO and war crimes is telling us we’re not socialist enough?
What? I’ve lost the plot.
chronic social democratic brain syndrome. This one appears terminal. They’ll support imperialism and anti-communism until they’re executed by fascists anyway for being a tankie
What is imperialism to you? Is it when countries around the world put Russian imperialism in check? Should we be praising Russia for liberating Ukraine by blowing up maternity wards and hospitals? Should we just let Holodomor v2.0 occur?
As always, such a hot take from Hexbear.
Should we just let Holodomor v2.0 occur?
Stop spreading holocaust denial
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NATO is leftist now, didn’t you hear? China and all the gross non-white countries are fascists, and NATO and all the nice clean white countries are based and leftist!!!
Non credible defense, shitposting about military stuff
thanks!
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Westerners deciding who’s doing real socialism or not. Westerners expressing their most vile sentiment for foreign countries rather than their own imperialism. Westerners praising the words of their own imperialist intelligence agencies. Westerners unironically praising their own nations for civil liberties like the freedom of fascists to assemble, freedom of racists to express themselves, freedom of parents to own their children, and freedom of school districts to continue racial segregation. Westerners praising imperialist nations like Norway as socialist while using bold language like fascism to describe places under that same exact threat of imperialism, like Cuba and Vietnam.
Westerners claiming foreign governments are merely pretending to be socialist, while claiming unorganized misinformed chauvinistic westerners are the true heirs to socialism, despite all they do is post online and complain about foreign nations.
Westerners praising anarchist movements from 100 years ago despite having no common cause with those movements, no connection to the circumstances within them, and probably no actual admiration of them. Westerners praising a bastardized, sectarian, perverse form of anarchism rather than attempting unity with organizations in their areas. Westerners refusing to speak with actual anarchists in their area, who by and large don’t give a shit and just want to hand out food or help at shelters. If Buenaventura Durruti were alive today he’d be regarded with scorn by western chauvinists.
Westerners continuing to bring up Trotsky of all people, who wasn’t relevant to world affairs for the last 15 years of his life and certainly not the past 80 years. Westerners not reading a single word of Trotsky’s work, westerners focusing entirely on Trotsky’s feud with Stalin, westerners not knowing that Trotsky was a literal military commander. Westerners calling themselves Trotskyists in 2023 for some reason. Westerners deciding they have a feud with Joseph Stalin, a man who died in 1953.
Westerners attempting to praise their own socialist leadership, who happen to be a scattered group of imperialist-aligned social democrats, Twitch streamers, and actual antisemitic grifters such as in the case of Caleb Maupin.
Its hard to challenge your opinions when you gish gallup 500 talking points
You gish galloped, you ad homin-ed, you no true scotsman-ed, you one true scotsman-ed, and then you mot and bailey-ed.
Checkmate sir
500 talking points and you couldn’t find a single thing to call into question
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My feed got a lot less irritating when I blocked posts from CyberGhost.
imagine lemmy if we could user-level defederate lemmygrad & hexbear
paradise
It’s such a fucking pain in my ass to have to block every single community from Lemmygrad and Hexbear. I’m so tired of seeing their dumbass 7th grade love of fascists and racism.
alongside having to block all the users that intrude on other subs to post their tankie propaganda
If youre on Android, the connect app has a block instance feature
It’s astounding that they are fascist lovers but parody the use of Leningrad in their name. Pick an ethos, guys.
One of the many things I love about Blahaj is that we’re no longer federated with Hexbear, there was a bit (frankly a shit ton)of drama getting there but those days when we were federated I blocked more Hexbear users than users from any other instance.
Join us on Blahaj, we’re explicitly queer friendly and we don’t have to deal with Hexbear anymore.
Of course once we can migrate accounts that will likely be a far easier sell.
Blocking chapo and news was really good for me.
I’m guessing you’re an anarchist, which I appreciate and so I totally understand why you may not like these instances, but do you ever feel like some of the people criticizing Lemmygrad and Hexbear are Right-wingers themselves?
I fully support Leftist critiques but some of these claims are kind of wild. Someone claiming hexbear is racist? How would it be racist, from a Leftist perspective? It just seems to me like Right-wingers are attacking them with these ridiculous claims to get them to be defederated or at least to get people to stay away and not understand the humor. If someone critiqued them for defending the State when communism should include the dissolution of the State apparatus, the recuperation of initially revolutionary movements by global capitalism, etc. then I’d appreciate the Leftist critiques but it doesn’t seem to me to be the case. And it doesn’t seem to me like there is any monolithic position at hexbear either. I actually was further pleasantly surprised to see they had an anarchism community and also a Christianity community at hexbear, it doesn’t feel to me like they have a hard Stalinist party-line and don’t accept differences among the Left.
I do get the feeling they don’t like Right-wingers though.
I’m just gonna talk about your first paragraph. No they are not right wingers lmao. I fucking hate that you can’t be centrist or democratic socialist without some asshole (not you, you’re just asking) saying you’re a right winger.
I believe the west has better equality, stability, quality of life, rights, morals, so and and so forth.
And I think we need to greatly expand our social programs.
However if I defend the west then suddenly I’m a right winger? Fuck off with that classification shit. I just don’t subscribe to Russia and China somehow being better then the US or the west in any sort of way.
This is why these social movements never get any movement in the US. They’re too busy self hating and worshipping facists in the East.
What you are describing is called “campism” in socialist communities which aren’t run by edgy teenagers and trolls.
Thanks for your response and I appreciate the thought you put into it. I agree we need to greatly and desperately expand social programs. I also don’t think Russia or China are perfect, much less socialist, but I wouldn’t say the West—including the US—is categorically and unquestionably better in every sort of way. That being said, the Left does need to be broader in the West and everywhere else, which is why I think I’d rather hold solidarity with Leftists in these instances who I may not fully agree with rather than attacking them alongside Right-wingers and fascists.
And, sorry, but, no offense, a centrist is a Right-winger to me and it proves my point.
My point is I’m only a right winger in a small niche bubble which is completely not the reality of things.
To most of the world I’m a lefty and to actual right wingers they would probably call me a communist (and sure incorrectly but not my point).
Right winger means maga idiot to most of the ppl in the US not democrat who wants to greatly expand our social programs and nets.
Hexbear unironically defends Russia, which is an extremely racist and homophobic place. Likewise, China is also an extremely racist place, which is increasingly opposed to LGBT advocacy as “western degeneracy.” And of course, they fall over themselves to defend tyranny, as long as it pays lip service to socialist ideals, while denigrating social democrats as insincere “shit libs.” Then they post their little arms crossed emoji thinking they’ve made some point.
By and large these people are children who legitimately have an extremely narrow view of the world they seek to critique. They see Lenin write that “imperialism is something everyone other than Russia does” and that’s about as far as they look into the underlying philosophy of imperialism.
Well, I’m not going to comment on Russia’s imperialism being supported on Hexbear because I haven’t quite seen that as much as I’ve seen critique of Ukraine’s issue with Nazism and the West’s hypocritical denialism about that even existing as an issue in Ukraine—when during Euromaidan it was acknowledged. I don’t support Putin or the invasion, because while there are Nazis in Ukraine who should be dealt with the same could be said about Russia or the US itself, but I also don’t think the US is being smart by arming fascist Right-wingers. The US has done this before and it never works out well.
I don’t quite see the racism argument though. Hexbear is racist because some people support Russia? I mean, yeah, Russia can definitely be racist and maybe some people at Hexbear probably support Russia in an uncritical way. But lacking any racist memes or racist discussions happening, of which I’ve seen none, I don’t think that equates to the users or the instance being racist. The US and Europe are extremely racist societies, I would argue way more racist than Russia, but I don’t see people arguing that instances with liberals who support the US are racist instances and should be defederated.
It seems like you just kinda agree with hexbear.
Oh, no, most of the critique, especially of lemmygrad, is from a right wing stance (right wing from an anarchist prospective). There are are plenty of good conversations to be had about the role of activism and the state in achieving liberation. But the standard critique is a knee jerk reaction.
I blocked those two hexbear comnunities because they are the most likely to insert hexbear’s wild and unpleasant meme culture into my timeline. They aren’t terribly interested in any discussion that doesn’t start and end with their viewpoint, cause its meme culture.
I have an 60% confidence I will get sea-lioned for this comment. Also a 20% chance I will get pig poop balls, although highlighting it may increase those odds
edit: after 5 hours I did not get sea-lioned. I admit I was overly critical in that estimate.
Yeah, I’m seeing it’s more Right-wingers than anarchist comrades so I do get skeptical.
But I understand about the meme culture. It can be heavy-handed but I actually like it. I think it’s funny and it is a nice break from just liberal or apolitical meme humor. I’ve seen some good discussions there though but honestly not too many anarchist discussions, although I get the feeling it wouldn’t be totally rejected. I wish there was more solidarity and love between us.
Thanks for the response!
Yeah, I subscribe to and participate in soma hexbear communities. I don’t throw it all out. And of course, the majority of critique of liberation will come from the right wing. There are some anarchist comnunities on lemmy, I hope to see you there some time!
Vhat is it that you feel unappealing about lemmygrad that does not agree with my opinions??
Edit: Sorry bots work on a half-day timeline.
Nothing, I have no strong opinion of lemmygrad.
It’s coming, likely in the next Lemmy update.
Or simply choose a instance that defederates fascists and authoritarian loving dipsshits. Never had a problem here with far right or tankie content.
In Connect it gives you the option of banning the instance. It will block out comments with a message that is was filtered. You get the option of viewing the content anyway, If you feel like it.
Removed by mod
I get you, I mean I can read some of the European languages that are big on lemmy, but I’d be quite annoying if I didn’t. But connect’s filter is quite handy with that, if you expect the comment to be in English, you can just read it.
Love that featur, hope the browser based version will implement the same
On sync for Lemmy you can block instances by putting it in it’s filter list.
The connect app allows you to block instances. Not the same as defeding obviously, but it helps.
What’d I miss?
To summarize: More tankie bullshit
“I’m socialist but i don’t support AES and believe US State Department propaganda” is not the flex you think it is
